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 Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle

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prancstaman
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PostSubject: Crunchin Numbers   Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:25 pm

Hay People,
Fun with numbers.....

OK, first thing. No guessing on the f/n/r pulley size. I actually just got up, went down in my basement and measured the f/n/r original pulley and is 8 inches.


I'll do the original MTD driveline setup now with the vari-drive and f/n/r for 1st and 5th gear.

1st gear= engine belt ratio-1.6, transaxle belt ratio=3.55, total ratio from engine to transaxle=5.68
  5.68 ratio X 21 transaxle ratio=  119.28 to 1 total ratio from engine to axle shaft.

5th gear= engine belt ratio-.75, transaxle belt ratio=1.6, total ratio from engine to transaxle= 1.2
  1.2 ratio X 21 transaxle ratio= 25.2 to 1 total ratio from engine to axle shaft.

OK, A comparison between the stock setup and the modified setup of ratios from engine to axle shaft.

  Stock/Modified
119.28 to 1 - 370.998 to 1- 1st gear and low/low
25.2 to 1 - 15.556 to 1 - 5th gear and high/high

Alright, I'm good then.
I think a turtle can beat me in a race in low/low. Couldn't even imagine the speed I'll be doing.


Now my modified setup compared to a traditional setup explained in pulley sizes. I figure you all would relate to this comparison better then the ratio figures. To get a better idea on the speeds through you all's experience.

-My low/low gear, if it was a traditional mower would be the same as-
engine pulley-3 inch, transaxle pulley-17.76 inches with a regular 5 speed transaxle.
-My high/high gear, if it was a traditional mower would be the same as-
engine pulley-5 inch, transaxle pulley- 8.5 inches with a regular 5 speed transaxle.

Not bad, not bad at all. I'll be using the green riding mower for the frame. It has it's problems but the chassis is almost rust free and solid. As I mentioned before, the vari-drive setup are all the same from mower to mower, just the linkage is different from mower to mower. With this in mind, the linkage setup on the green mower is more suited for the bigger transaxle pulley i am using. Plus it has 7 speeds for the vari-drive as compared to the red mower with 5 speeds. The numbers for the ratios are the same, just the shifter handle is longer for the range of movement on the fender which makes it possible for the extra gears, high and low ratios are still the same. This brings the total gears to 35 forward gears and 7 reverse gears. WOW!! I think I should be able to find the perfect gears for cutting my grass, I would think, LOL.

I'll be using the hood, grill, and dash off the red mower for the green mower, just for the look. The original ones for the green mower are long gone, or plastic, or busted up. Maybe some other parts too. Electrical needs cleaned up but is in good condition.

Stay tuned...............
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prancstaman
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:27 pm

@tater195 wrote:
The numbers for a 633 are:
low
1st  60:1
2nd 38:1
3rd 24:1
high
1st 12:1
2nd 8:1
3rd 4:1

I don't remember the pulley sizes, but I would guess 3" on motor and 7" on the tx. Multiply the ratios by 2.33 to compare to what you came up with. Stock top speed with 23" tires and 3600rpm will be around 6mph. That will make your application with 18" tires super slow in low/low and probably top out around 3 in hi/hi if I guessed right

I'll play with these numbers over the weekend. Thanks tater.
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RichieRichOverdrive
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:46 am

My friend has a Murray with a varidrive and MST202. He's planning on putting a MST206 in it. I just kinda guessed and thought it would put him around 10mph with the extra 4 gears. Think that'd be about right?
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prancstaman
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:03 am

With the vary drive, high gear on it is 1 or 1.5 to 1 going to trans with all the stock pulleys. 10 to 15 mph sounds about right.
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:36 pm

@tater195 wrote:
The numbers for a 633 are:
low
1st  60:1
2nd 38:1
3rd 24:1
high
1st 12:1
2nd 8:1
3rd 4:1

I don't remember the pulley sizes, but I would guess 3" on motor and 7" on the tx. Multiply the ratios by 2.33 to compare to what you came up with. Stock top speed with 23" tires and 3600rpm will be around 6mph. That will make your application with 18" tires super slow in low/low and probably top out around 3 in hi/hi if I guessed right

A stock riding mower with stock pulleys final ratios for each gear. #'s rounded to nearest .5
1st  60:1= 139 to 1
2nd 38:1=  88.5 to 1
3rd 24:1= 56 to 1
high
1st 12:1= 28 to 1
2nd 8:1= 18.5 to 1
3rd 4:1= 9.5 to 1


This would be with a vari-drive pulley setup added with a 3 inch engine pulley and a 7 inch transaxle pulley.
first set of numbers will be vari-drive in low, second set of numbers will be vari-drive in high.
1st  60:1= 297.6 to 1, 63 to 1
2nd 38:1= 188.48 to 1, 39.9 to 1
3rd 24:1= 119.04 to 1, 25.2 to 1
high
1st 12:1= 59.52 to 1, 12.6 to 1
2nd 8:1= 39.68 to 1, 8.4 to 1
3rd 4:1= 19.84 to 1, 4.2 to 1

With the vari-drive added to the 633 using the stock pulleys, the ratio for low is 4.96 to 1 from engine to transaxle. With the vari-drive added, in high would be 1.05 to 1 from engine to transaxle. Compared to the regular pulley setup with a ratio of 2.33 to one. With the 633 in 3rd/high and vari-drive in high, the ratio of 4.2 to 1 would be a top speed of around 50 mph, if there was no slippage in the belts of the vari-drive. Keep in mind, the vari-drive is a good setup with impressive ratios put on paper, but in reality using this setup, the vari-drive pulley is working with a pulley diameter of 2.25 inches on either end and is hard to keep this pulley diameter from slipping under load. Plus, the time to engineer this setup for a horizontal shaft engine and horizontal input for transaxle, time and money would be better spent on a torque converter setup on motor with the chain drive end going to the transaxle, and would have better ratios and probably no slippage with a built in clutch.

There ya go tater. Smile
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PostSubject: Fun with gears   Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Hay people,
Was talking with my kid today and he asked me about this project. Where am I at an what am I doing to it, sort of thing. I showed him the transaxle, told him how many gears I'll have. Since I'll be using my green riding mower which has 7 gears on the vari-drive in stock form. When I put the 5 speed in, I'll have 35 forward gears and 7 reverse gears. WOW!! OK, I'm using this FOOTE 5 speed because it's probably the weakest transaxle I got of this type (just cutting grass after all). I got 2 other transaxles from riding mowers that will bolt right in and are probably stronger too. These other 2 transaxles are 6 speeds. Lets brainstorm for a second, LOL. If I put in a 6 speed into this project, the riding mower would have 42 forward gears with 7 reverse. That's just crazy there.

For me, this project actually has a job to do. What do you people think of all the gearing? How would you use it? Just curious.

So.... the plan is, this weekend I'll be switching out the front ends, since the red one was in pretty good shape. Along with cleaning out the grass coated grease inside the frame. Maybe even switch over the dash and mount the hood and grill. Next weekend, the grass should be cut which will give me 3 weeks to put in the transaxle and get it working right with the vari-drive. Then the posts will come with all the info.
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Lawren Wimberly
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:46 pm

good luck brother!

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:50 pm

@Lawren Wimberly wrote:
good luck brother!

Thanks. Hopefully I don't melt from the sun.
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:49 am

My personal take on this would be a 3 speed... basically giving you a high, med, and low speed set for the vari drive... I'm thinking that even with the extra gears in say, an 820, you are going to end up using only a few in these ranges.

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:24 am

I had thought about something similar... doing like what Lawren said, but just a hi/lo setup with the vari drive.
I have one of those vari drive pulleys... but Ill probably never get around to using it
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:51 pm

Yes, good points you 2. I'll probably only really use about 5 of the gears total cutting the grass. Unfortunately this rig will only be cutting the grass and I live in the city to boot so using it for another purpose will never happen, but I might have to push a car though. Which I might put on a really good bumper for.  If I was in the country, I probably would pull the deck off and go riding since it has a wide range of gears and would handle just about anything.

I'll be doing another build on this subject in probably a year or so, keep your eyes open for it. So everything learned here will be applied to that build, to the extreme.

Yah, The gear selection for the vari-drive would be better served for an off road rig with only a couple gears. I would say just 3 gear selections would be perfect for off road. High/medium/low.

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:15 pm

Yeah thats why I wanted to do it with a Peerless 600. Mine would've had 15 speeds which would've been great for off-road use. Oh well haha. Lookin great so far prancstaman!

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:28 pm

The set up I had on an old MTD signature, had a decent pulley swap and 22" lumberjacks. The only problem I had with belt slip was in the mud pit when the belt got wet. I used the clutch pedal like a foot hydro. Top end was in the 20mph range. I could pull along side one with a mild swap (12mph) and kick it in overdrive, pull the front wheels and get to top end without slipping anything. Yes that isnt geared to run 50, but the way the thing works is it squeezes the belt tighter than a regular pulley. The big factor is the size of the return spring on the idler on the back belt. If you have ever replaced the belt on a stock one, you know how strong they are. If 1 is good 2 is even better (if you have the legs to run it)
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:05 pm

Forget legs, ho win the stink do you simply hood the springs up in the first place? I dunno, I always seem to have trouble... I must be a wimp. lol! lol!
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Lawren Wimberly
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:12 pm

@TheBeal wrote:
Forget legs, ho win the stink lol! lol!

cheers lol! and SNORK!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:59 am

I use a few loops of 600# trotline string and a 16" piece of broom handle. I have busted the string and snapped the broom handle. I works, but it isnt perfect. the key is to find a way to grab and release the spring and a good anchor point for leverage
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:19 am

and I use blacksmith bolt tongs. In all seriousness, I may forge out a special purpose set just for that... something similar to brake spring tongs, but heavier.

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:57 pm

Hay People,
Did some work on this project for a couple hours. Just changed the front axle with wheels since the red mower had a good front axle.  Pulled the battery, stood it up on end to do the work. No hood or grill yet.

Before pic


After pic. Bolted right in. Steers alot easier now, when I cut the grass today.




OK, This riding mower is 4 wheel steer, so it has an f/n/r with the steering. Looky, Looky. Redneckcomputergeek is on to something with this thing. The axle tubes unbolt from the gearbox. I could do something with the axle tubes alone, since they have the steering already engineered into them. But whatever I do will have to have new U-joints, These are shot as I thought. More pics when I get it out.

One axle tube.

The other axle tube.

And the steering knuckle.


I think when I get this f/n/r out, I'll throw it in my basement so nothing gets lost, LOL. Next to my turbo setup that I'm going to make into a jet engine for my tank, How many people can say that lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:30 pm

That AWS F-N-R transaxle is pretty cool. I've wanted one of those for a while just to have it, hahaha. Could be used in a pretty cool project of some sort I'm sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:58 pm

Yup. I need to rebuild my riding mower with the plow and wanting it 4wd. I might use this setup or go with a cv axle out of a car. Don't know yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:46 pm

Yeah I've always wanted to use an all wheel steer F-N-R as the front axle and a regular F-N-R for the rear. And then have a Peerles 600 as the "transfer case" to drive them both using the axles as drive shafts. Sorta like Redneckcomputergeak did, but a bit different. That'd be a really cool setup!

_______________________________________________
Success doesn't happen to all of us, if it did they'd change it believe me - Red Green

                             Tourque it 'til it breaks, then back it off a quarter turn!
       

        Stuff I've Welded Together
        - M.T.D. Off-Road Build  
      
- Toro Rat Rod Tractor Build
        - Lawn Tractor Utility Trailer
        - Ford LT 110 Off-Road Build  
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:16 pm

I don't think he made "not the norm" a 4 wheel drive yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:52 pm

No he didnt, but I meant the transaxle arrangement would be similar to his build. With the trans mounted parallel to the frame rails and what not.

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Success doesn't happen to all of us, if it did they'd change it believe me - Red Green

                             Tourque it 'til it breaks, then back it off a quarter turn!
       

        Stuff I've Welded Together
        - M.T.D. Off-Road Build  
      
- Toro Rat Rod Tractor Build
        - Lawn Tractor Utility Trailer
        - Ford LT 110 Off-Road Build  
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:11 pm

I can see that setup being reliable, but really slow. Would have to overdrive the hell out of it for a decent speed from it.
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:30 pm

Yeah thats true, I forgot that the F-N-Rs have a really low final drive ratio. But 4WD and slow speeds would make it a great crawling tractor!

_______________________________________________
Success doesn't happen to all of us, if it did they'd change it believe me - Red Green

                             Tourque it 'til it breaks, then back it off a quarter turn!
       

        Stuff I've Welded Together
        - M.T.D. Off-Road Build  
      
- Toro Rat Rod Tractor Build
        - Lawn Tractor Utility Trailer
        - Ford LT 110 Off-Road Build  
        - Craftsman GT 6000 Off-Road/Workhorse Build
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PostSubject: Re: Vari drive with 5 speed transaxle   Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:32 pm

Yah it would.
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