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 New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.

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Thunderdivine
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 7:58 am

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid!

New side build this Winter, a JD210 Mini build, trying to keep the total lenght under 40".

By now I just got some ideas, and haven't decided to use a RAGB or a 700 or even a flipped transaxle.

Need your input what to use...

Parts I allready have on hand,

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. BFE58519-C66F-49FB-8F45-0D57D488282D-14781-000014BBEE059375_zpsf14a242ejpgoriginal_zpsab27ad75

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. F51C3C34-606D-410D-86A7-9B78D0B26E80-13747-0000129533D2E8BB_zpsd842cb6c

Rear fenders ordered, and misc. parts I got leftover from the Craftsman build.

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. KGrHqJjE5duZJtqBOfOCpcmWQ_12_zps517409a9


FRONTAXLE,
Need your help deciding what type im going to build, adjustable or none by the KISS principle, I'm leaning toward the easy idea.

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. CC99CB1D-30C4-4958-AAD0-ACB4F0C66124-13938-00001299972F7CB7_zpsd40d795e




I put Bids on a,
Briggs & Stratton V-Twin 20HP Vanguard "RED".

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. T2eC16ZHJGkFFmv7hYwpBSePYGV9Q60_57_zps5b0d22aajpgoriginal_zps824ac8a0


(Orig. post,
Is this good?
Anyone know the differences about the Red and Black model's?)
Topic will be changed once i got it settled. And no, it's not mine yet :bounce


Last edited by Thunderdivine on November 23rd 2013, 5:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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partin_us_99
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 9:26 am

id say its good I dont think theres much of a difference between red and black mostly only painted to fit the application it was on.
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Stretch44875
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:11 pm

I like the vanguard v-twins, they are very smooth running, and seem to have good power. Haven't had one on a race mower, just grass cutters.

If the red and the black are both 20 hp vanguards, I can't see there being a major difference in them.

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redlinemotorsportts
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:31 pm

They copmpany says something about black being consumer, and the red industrial.... i don't know the difference. V twins are nice, high reving motor, more aftermarket if you decided to mod it. More efficient on power than a L-head
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:38 pm

So "RED" series might have bearings then, I read that the Black series had bushings.

And if that's the case as you say Red id go for a RED Series no doubt.

I bid on this pictured on ebay today, 150$ under buy now price, and then the seller removed the buy now option and made it auction only, so now i gotta wait 5 days to see if i get it or not.
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:45 pm

Thunderdivine wrote:
So "RED" series might have bearings then, I read that the Black series had bushings.

And if that's the case as you say Red id go for a RED Series no doubt.

I bid on this pictured on ebay today, 150$ under buy now price, and then the seller removed the buy now option and made it auction only, so now i gotta wait 5 days to see if i get it or not.
Bite them figernails-i can only imagine how much you want it lol. nothin beats that v twin sound
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:53 pm

redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
So "RED" series might have bearings then, I read that the Black series had bushings.

And if that's the case as you say Red id go for a RED Series no doubt.

I bid on this pictured on ebay today, 150$ under buy now price, and then the seller removed the buy now option and made it auction only, so now i gotta wait 5 days to see if i get it or not.
Bite them figernails-i can only imagine how much you want it lol. nothin beats that v twin sound
Oh I know, tho doubt it will beat my opposed sound. Bom, bom, bom, bom. bounce 
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 12:56 pm

Thunderdivine wrote:
redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
So "RED" series might have bearings then, I read that the Black series had bushings.

And if that's the case as you say Red id go for a RED Series no doubt.

I bid on this pictured on ebay today, 150$ under buy now price, and then the seller removed the buy now option and made it auction only, so now i gotta wait 5 days to see if i get it or not.
Bite them figernails-i can only imagine how much you want it lol. nothin beats that v twin sound
Oh I know, tho doubt it will beat my opposed sound. Bom, bom, bom, bom. bounce 
Yeah- It is personal preference. Just to let you know (because you're interested in it) im gathering parts for the mini and competing in a DIY karts forum build off in late winter. cheers 
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 15th 2013, 1:59 pm

redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
So "RED" series might have bearings then, I read that the Black series had bushings.

And if that's the case as you say Red id go for a RED Series no doubt.

I bid on this pictured on ebay today, 150$ under buy now price, and then the seller removed the buy now option and made it auction only, so now i gotta wait 5 days to see if i get it or not.
Bite them figernails-i can only imagine how much you want it lol. nothin beats that v twin sound
Oh I know, tho doubt it will beat my opposed sound. Bom, bom, bom, bom. bounce 
Yeah- It is personal preference. Just to let you know (because you're interested in it) im gathering parts for the mini and competing in a DIY karts forum build off in late winter. cheers 
Cool, I'm gathering parts for a mini aswell, but shhh don't tell anyone. This build I'm gonna: "keep it simple, stupid".
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 8:04 am

So you slipped this under my nose.....lol just saw the pics and seems like a sweet plan, jd style will look good. To answer some of your questions, id do a 700 to go kart axle, and use option #2 on the front axle, with the steering hem joints, they'll be adjustable for camber.
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 8:49 am

I'd say if you're keeping it simple, just fab the front axle up fixed. I recommend 0 degrees camber and positive 10 degrees caster. You'll need to look elsewhere for kpi and ackerman information... we just winged it on those.


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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 10:32 am

On my builds, I too use zero static camber usually, and generally around 10 degrees caster. Since my racer sits with about 4 degrees rake, I built in 14 degrees caster, which will equate to 10 degrees effective caster.

I usually build in 10-12 degrees KPI, which works very nicely with the caster angle, to load up the inside rear tire in a turn. It also adds feel and feedback to the steering and aids in self-centering.

Properly applying th Ackermann principle must be done on a case by case basis. It is entirely based on the individual chassis dimensions so there is no one-size-fits-all angle. I will provide more detail if you like.
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 12:20 pm

Thanks, yea think ill keep the front axles locked, but with +8 Caster, -10 Camber, 10 Kpi. And the ackerman term is highly misunderstood, since many times racer run the reversed Ackerman principle.

Also since most run locked rears ackerman is also not that important as Caster and Camber.

Aaaaand I won the V-Twin Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. T2eC16ZHJGkFFmv7hYwpBSePYGV9Q60_57_zps5b0d22aa

Now I just gotta wait 2-3-4 months for shipping Shocked 
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 12:41 pm

I agree that some racers run anti-Ackermann, but I wouldn't be TOO quick to dismiss the value of a proprly applied Ackermann principle. Racing and other special applications aside, I can personally attest to the marked difference it can make in the way a vehicle handles. I have found this to be especially true in live (locked) axle applications. Certainly my own personal opinion, but based on my experiences.
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 12:46 pm

Doc Sprocket wrote:
I agree that some racers run anti-Ackermann, but I wouldn't be TOO quick to dismiss the value of a proprly applied Ackermann principle. Racing and other special applications aside, I can personally attest to the marked difference it can make in the way a vehicle handles. I have found this to be especially true in live (locked) axle applications. Certainly my own personal opinion, but based on my experiences.
Yeah I'm not, I was just mentioned it Very Happy 
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 12:47 pm

TheRainbowBoxer wrote:
I'd say if you're keeping it simple, just fab the front axle up fixed.  I recommend 0 degrees camber and positive 10 degrees caster.  You'll need to look elsewhere for kpi and ackerman information... we just winged it on those.
How come 0 degree camber TRBB?
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 3:20 pm

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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 5:38 pm

Doug Fackler wrote:
When will you be Western Unioning me some "assets"? Douggy needs his tractor!
Let's see, how about NEVER Exclamation bounce
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 19th 2013, 6:04 pm

Thunderdivine wrote:
TheRainbowBoxer wrote:
I'd say if you're keeping it simple, just fab the front axle up fixed.  I recommend 0 degrees camber and positive 10 degrees caster.  You'll need to look elsewhere for kpi and ackerman information... we just winged it on those.
How come 0 degree camber TRBB?
Because in my group's experience, which includes both trail riding at low speeds, to racing on a dirt/grass track at around 25mph, to running full out on the asphalt at 45mph -- camber does not add enough to the offroad experience to offset the steering instability and "hunting" feeling that we have seen at high speed with it. Just my recommendation based on personal experience.


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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 12:36 pm

TheRainbowBoxer wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
TheRainbowBoxer wrote:
I'd say if you're keeping it simple, just fab the front axle up fixed.  I recommend 0 degrees camber and positive 10 degrees caster.  You'll need to look elsewhere for kpi and ackerman information... we just winged it on those.
How come 0 degree camber TRBB?
Because in my group's experience, which includes both trail riding at low speeds, to racing on a dirt/grass track at around 25mph, to running full out on the asphalt at 45mph -- camber does not add enough to the offroad experience to offset the steering instability and "hunting" feeling that we have seen at high speed with it.  Just my recommendation based on personal experience.
Thanks, but it looks more cool I think Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 2:49 pm

Did you get the vanguard?
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 3:43 pm

redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Did you get the vanguard?
Yes Sir!
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 5:31 pm

Thunderdivine wrote:
redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Did you get the vanguard?
Yes Sir!
Ya whooooooo! How long do you think the frame will be?
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 5:41 pm

redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Thunderdivine wrote:
redlinemotorsportts wrote:
Did you get the vanguard?
Yes Sir!
Ya whooooooo! How long do you think the frame will be?
I was going for a super short but wide mower this time, but you know how it is, things change. And it came to me after watching the first mockup that what I really like on this JD210 is the looong and narrow hood. So then it kinda would be stupid to have it made short. But maybe, maybe 40" if not 48", frame will be 39" Wide and custom built.
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PostSubject: Re: New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle.   New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Icon_minitimeNovember 22nd 2013, 5:55 pm

Tadaa? I dont know exact dim.'s but it prolly 15" wide at most, around 20" tall. Im gunna basically cut it in half to covor my v twin.
New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. 13917611
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New Sidebuild: JD210 - Racing Mower by the K.I.S.S. principle. Empty
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