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 [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86

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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMay 30th 2023, 10:02 pm

I got one head broken down for cleaning. I cleaned the combustion chamber, the head sealing surface and the intake valve so far. I couldn't get all the crap from the nooks in the chamber but I think it's good enough. The carbon on this side is really tough. Took lots of scrubbing and wiping to even start making progress. [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20196
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20194

Another good note, the valves look and feel great. They're nice and tight in the guides and have nothing on the stems that you can feel at all. I haven't measured but I'm pretty confident that they're good to go.

I have the exhaust valve soaking in atf overnight to hopefully help me in cleaning the carbon off it tomorrow morning. I'll also break down the other head and clean it out as well. The other side was running nice so I think it will be less work to get clean.

The seats look fantastic too with no evidence of leaking so I don't think I'll lap them.

I am going to do some very minor port work to clean out some casting flash. They're small ridges but it can't hurt to smooth the runner out.

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 5th 2023, 11:15 pm

I have some engine updates for tonight.  The vertical to horizontal conversion is becoming more in depth than I thought but I'm going to succeed.  If it blows up then I guess I'll learn stuff but I'm pretty confident I'll be able to make it work reliably.  The oil pickup is proving to be the most difficult part, followed closely by the excessive crank end play issue.   My original plan was to use the CH23 oil pickup as the sump cover for the horizontal is very similar to the CV23 cover.  This plan would've worked if a casting boss in the CV cover wasn't directly in the way.  The pickup is plastic so it can't be easily modified.  I decided to use the stock CV pickup cut really short and coupled to a piece of 3/8 steel fuel line I salvaged from a 40 series Toyota land cruiser 2F fuel injection conversion I've been working on lately.  It will let me locate the pickup down in the lowest part of the sump with the engine at the angle I want.  I haven't cut up the fuel line yet but I'll be progressing more with that tomorrow morning so I'll have pictures and stuff tomorrow.  I did however mill out a post that supports the CV pickup screen that was blocking the planned route of the new pickup tube.  The oil pump mounts on the machined flat and the new pickup tube will extend down 45 degrees to the right.  I will probably use the CH pickup screen and foot on the end of the fuel line, or I'll make my own foot.  I haven't received the pickup yet so I'll decide when I get it.  I might just send it back and make my own.  I'm also waiting on a bunch of seals and gaskets in the same order.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20199


The other part I've been working on is coming together as well.  I inspected the crank and cam since I took them out and I'm pretty happy.  The cam is perfect as far as I can tell.  Normal lifter and cam wear, nothing you can feel and the patterns look great.  Very happy about that.

The crank on the other hand isn't as perfect but still has nothing you can feel with a fingernail or plastic edge.  Perfect for this project.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20197

For the end play I dug through all the gear setup shims and happened to find a couple that are the right dimensions.  I have no idea what the shims are for as they don't match 8 or 9.5in land cruiser, Ford 9in or 8in mini truck, we don't really do much other variety in gears so I guess I got lucky.  I have .073 in shims, .053ish in end play so I'll machine of the worn part of the sump cover to make a nice flat for the shims to ride against.  I'll do some measuring but I'll have to cut the face enough to add the shims and set end play on the tighter side of the spec.  It will be nice to have a more proper thrust bearing between the crank and the cover instead of nothing.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20198

This is where the shims will sit, there such a nice size, it was awesome to not have to buy them.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20201

I'm pretty excited about how all this is going, especially the horizontal conversion.  I think having the engine in that orientation and leaned back will look really cool.  The rear cylinder will probably be something like 30 degrees angled up and pointing towards me and the other cylinder close to vertical.  I'm going to modify the intake to have the carbonator on the side kind of like a motorcycle with a nice air box probably off an 80s Toyota mini truck mounted somewhere kinda hidden and exhaust in a Y pipe to a muffler underneath.

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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 7th 2023, 12:33 am

I don't have much time to put into an update so here's some pictures of what I was up to.

Cutting the messed up thrust bearing surface off.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20204

I think I'm done with machining the sump cover. I'm still working on the oil pickup.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20205


I drilled a hole in the casting webs below the cylinder head oil drains to facilitate easy drainage.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20203
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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 12th 2023, 10:38 pm

I'm waiting on a large order of seals and parts for this before I can put it all back together, the engine I mean.  Hopefully I don't need to order more shims to use as the thrust bearing.  I cut off enough to bring the shim surface to the same height as the original aluminum thrust surface but our mill is pretty much a fancy drill press and it can't hold any kind of real mill accuracy unless you lock both table axes and the quill, but then you have no feeds.  It's underwhelming to say the least.


Anyhow, since I was waiting and feeling silly this morning I decided to paint the engine tins.  I dug around in our oil and misc crap shelf and found a handful of colors to pick from.  I couldn't decide so I picked all of them.  I just picked a tin and a random color and sprayed it.  I have no idea what it's going to look like but it will be fun to find out.  I do still need to paint the fan and the main plastic shroud but I want a particularly offensive pair of clashing colors for those parts.  I'm open to suggestions.

Valve covers got safety red and flat grey
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20206


Tins got an the rest of the colors.  I did use the blue engine enamel twice, that wasn't intentional, I just missed the little piece that was blue and painted a second part.  

I just noticed that it looks like two parts are white.  The larger tin on the right is matte white, the smaller one on the left is silver, my camera must've just blown out the colors.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20207

I'm also considering doing each half of the gear box different
colors but it's going to be hidden so I don't know.  

Tomorrow I think I'm going to start cutting off the bracketry and clutch assembly from the vertical setup and start mocking in the horizontal setup.  I'm really going to like having the clutch on the side of the car instead of underneath.  Service and belt changes will be so much easier and I'll be able to add a bit of belly clearance.  I feel like this was the right choice, converting from vertical.

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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 22nd 2023, 10:06 pm

I have a good amount to post so this may be part one for tonight since dinner is almost ready.

Since my engine will be running in a 90 degree orientation from stock, the carb needs an elbow to sit correctly. I bought a U bend from a local supplier next to my work and made these flanges from some scrap plate. I'm pretty happy with how it came out. It will get welded fully once I'm happy with it's orientation. Right now it's tacked to have the carb sit level with the engine sitting flat on it's base. It might be leaned back out forward in the tractor to lower the cg, so I may end up needing to rotate the carb side flange a little.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20300

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20209

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20208

Unrelated to this build, so I can remove this if it's not welcome, but I thought it was pretty cool. We took delivery of a reproduction Toyota 40 series land cruiser body for one of the vehicles here. It was cool to unbox a whole body.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20301


I also set a Honda gx on the frame with a pulley on it, and another pulley mocked up close to where the input pulley will be so I can't get a rough idea where the clutch and belts will live. I think this is going to work out well. I really didn't like how hidden the belt and clutch were on the underside with the vertical engine. Changing belts on the trail or messing with the clutch would be a pain. I think having the belts up on the side, protected from more crap and easily accessible is a great benefit.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20302

This will be part one. I have a decent sized engine update to post later tonight after I eat.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 22nd 2023, 10:22 pm

Typically put the other stuff in it's own post, but since the B/O is slow. It's fine.


[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Sig115PROJECTS:
     Marshal ........93 Craftsman GT6000      
     Red Bandit ...72 Wheel Horse Raider 12
     Dirty Rat........77 Sears Suburban
     Bowser..........01 Murray Widebody LT
     Other projects
Have a question? Ask me! Type in "@MightyRaze" in your post!
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 23rd 2023, 12:53 am

My engine is getting so much more attention than I was originally planning. The main components are all clean and looking sharp. I used Lubriplate for sliding surface and Rotella for the rest as that's what I'm planning on running for oil.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20307

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20308

Rods and Pistons in.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20306

Next in was the cam and lifters.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20309

The heads is where some cool things are happening. I am still in progress of building the heads so I don't have pictures yet, that will probably be tomorrow or this weekend.
My expectations for this engine will be low, but I do plan on abusing it sometimes. I don't have any reliable information on where the stock valves start to lose control but I've seen people claim is in-between 4500 and 5000. Some people claim even higher. I want the valves too be under control to at least 5000. I don't plan on holding rpms above 4000 for any long periods, and I don't plan on holding above 5000 for longer than a quick bump up an obstacle. That being said, I want the best possible results for the least amount of money. I considered valve springs from Midwest supercub that are good to 6500, but I really don't need that much more spring so it would be a small amount of extra parasitic drag and higher lifter pressure for very little gain. I want to balance everything and put in a cam if I'm going to turn those rpms.
So I thought of how get some extra seat pressure and I decided to just preload the springs a bit extra. This is where I'm at currently so I'll post an update on the heads tomorrow. I need to measure the lift and then subtract that from the max lift before coil bind to see how much preload I can add. I feel like this will give me enough control for my targets, but I would love input from anyone with valve train experience in the 5000 range.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 23rd 2023, 11:14 pm

I had so much fun today putting more of the engine together.  I freaking love engine building.  This is probably the most excited I've been to post an update since the beginning.  

I found the perfect part to use as a valve spring shim.  First step was to measure the stock lift and compare it to coil bind to see how much room I have.  Stock lift at the valve is .317.  I opened the valve further and stopped at .410.  I didn't measure but it looked right on the cusp of coil bind.  This was great news as I wanted to run .060-.080 of extra preload.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20310

I spent a while looking around at random washer and shim options while working on other stuff and found a bunch of options but they all went out the window when I found these copper crush washers.  They fit perfectly in the stock spring cup and are just slightly wider than the spring itself so theres very little unneeded material.  Each one comes in at .039 so with two stacked I get .078.  This is short enough in the cup to still capture the spring and close to the maximum preload available.  
These are stock oil cooler gaskets for a Toyota 2F engine, something we have piles of sitting around, well F motors in general.  I included the part number in case anyone else wants to do similar.  It's untested but I'm certain it will improve valve control, I just don't know by how much.  I can't find rate specs on the stock springs and I don't have a valve spring gauge / tester so I can't say what changed and by how much.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20311

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20312

I can't believe how perfectly they fit.  They even very slightly snap into place and lay perfectly down in the bottom of the stock cup.  Price was great too, though I don't know retail.  I feel like $8.78 for increased valve control is very worth it.  I bought 8 but you might even be able to run a triple stack but that would be super close to coil bind so be careful and test if you do that.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20313

Ready for springs.  I put a bit of Lubriplate between the cup and bottom washer, and between the two washers.  I used engine oil on the top between the spring and washer.  Hopefully the copper holds up, but since the spring hasn't worn into the stock cup even a little, I think it will be ok.  Plus if it starts to come apart it's just copper, probably won't hurt anything before it gets in the filter
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20315

The head on the right has the preload washers in it, the left does not.  If you look closely you can see the difference.  The best place to see it is the relationship between the valve cover surface and the coil around that level.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20314
I love the looks of a clean loved engine.  Time to set the heads on.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20316

It's a Red Letter Day!  
The heads are back on and torqued.  How exciting!
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20317

Next I couldn't resist mocking up the intake.  With the elbow I made standing the carb off to the side it's starting to look pretty awesome.  With an equal length header that I'll make I feel like it's looking like a motorcycle engine.  I can't wait to get the clown car tins on and see how ridiculous it will look.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20318
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20319

The last thing I did today on my lunch break was set the covers on.  I might go with something brighter on the grey cover but I won't make that decision until I see the tins on.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20320


This is definitely my favorite part so far of this build.  I still need to put the valvetrain in and finish the sump cover.  The cover will include the oil pump pickup which is only about 50% done but that will be my focus next week so I can close up the motor for good.  Hopefully my shims will be sufficient to get the crank end play in spec but I can always order shims if I need it.  I'm planning on running it on the loose side of the spec since it will be abused from time to time.  Loose is fast.

Woohoo!

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 24th 2023, 8:29 am

Neat idea on the copper washer, but my concern is will they, being copper a softer material, squish out over time and break?


[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Sig115PROJECTS:
     Marshal ........93 Craftsman GT6000      
     Red Bandit ...72 Wheel Horse Raider 12
     Dirty Rat........77 Sears Suburban
     Bowser..........01 Murray Widebody LT
     Other projects
Have a question? Ask me! Type in "@MightyRaze" in your post!
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 24th 2023, 5:01 pm

MightyRaze wrote:
Neat idea on the copper washer, but my concern is will they, being copper a softer material, squish out over time and break?  

I'll be the one to find out. My guess is they will dent and confirm slightly to the shape of the spring base and then from the force cycles of the valve operation, they will work harden over time and potentially crack over time. They are however captured snugly by the stock cup so when cracked I think they will stay in place.


High hopes. Low expectations.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 24th 2023, 5:29 pm

Good work man! So you know Home Depot sells steel shim washers for cheap, bet you could find the right size to fit in there! Better safe than sorry right?!


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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 26th 2023, 12:54 pm

Looking great man! I don’t think those copper shims will give you any trouble at all.

Have you considered going to a slide carb? Or just stock for now?

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 27th 2023, 1:32 pm

RichieRichOverdrive wrote:
Looking great man! I don’t think those copper shims will give you any trouble at all.

Have you considered going to a slide carb? Or just stock for now?

I tend to agree with you about the shims.  There's not really any movement or sliding going on in there and I think they will be fine.

I haven't considered a slide carb, what would be the benefits over stock?  I'm trying to use as much stock stuff as possible but if there's benefits too a slide carb I'd like to learn about them and see if whatever it would cost would be worth it.  Does the stock carb have issues that my combination might bring to the surface?

Also on the fuel delivery topic, does anyone see issues with me adding that additional ninety degree bend in the intake stream? It would help with mixing but would hurt velocity. Would making a new plenum and intake manifold be worth it?
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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 27th 2023, 2:54 pm

Shouldn't be any worse than an updraft carb or a Briggs opposed manifold.


[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Sig115PROJECTS:
     Marshal ........93 Craftsman GT6000      
     Red Bandit ...72 Wheel Horse Raider 12
     Dirty Rat........77 Sears Suburban
     Bowser..........01 Murray Widebody LT
     Other projects
Have a question? Ask me! Type in "@MightyRaze" in your post!
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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 27th 2023, 8:22 pm

I don't believe the extra bend will show much of a difference, personally.

Slide carb has the advantage of simplicity, easily tunable, and being able to select about any size you want. Mikuni knockoffs can be had for under $50 and have shown to perform very well. I have a 34mm mikuni knockoff on the opposed twin on Mutt and it performs excellently, though I did have to fiddle with it a bit to get it just right. As for the stock carb, I'm not familiar with it on these models. Usually you can still make a lot of gains by flow and the like while still using the stock unit.

That reminds me, you might try advancing the cam a tooth and advancing your ignition (turning the flywheel and using an offset key or no key at all). I got good results from doing that on my opposed twin.
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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 27th 2023, 10:27 pm

RichieRichOverdrive wrote:

That reminds me, you might try advancing the cam a tooth and advancing your ignition (turning the flywheel and using an offset key or no key at all). I got good results from doing that on my opposed twin.

This is interesting. Idea I for sure am planning on a key for advancing ignition timing but advancing cam timing is not something I've ever thought about. This is another avenue I need to research and learn about. I know cam timing is a place for gains, I just don't know if it's the right choice. I feel like it being a single cam, there might not be many gains for advancing intake and exhaust together and I need to read more, I like driving into topics that I need to learn about.

I think I'm going to do a 6 degree key, but maybe 8. Still reading and thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 29th 2023, 11:15 pm

I have a small update for tonight.  I started putting the sump cover on to see if I measured correctly for the reworked thrust bearing setup.  The spec is ,002-.023.  I measured and aimed for .010 but the mill we have is basically a fancy drill press and it is not capable of anything needing tolerances around ,001.  I locked up the Y axis, locked the quill at the height I measured for and then snugged the locks on the X axis as tight as I could while still being able to travel.  I aimed for the middle of the spec so I could try for +-.005 and be in spec no matter where it landed.  I put in the thick shim, .079 thick, greased it up and put on the sump cover.  End play is now .008.  I'm happy enough with that, though I wanted it a little looser ideally.  Now at least I don't have a ton like I had before, plus now there's a steel thrust bearing instead of the gear right against the aluminum.  There shouldn't be much thrust with the way I'll be running this engine, the flywheel won't be supported by the stock thrust anymore.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20321

I also have the rockers and the rest of the valvetrain in.  

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20322


The next part I started on today is the engine mount and position.  I want to mount flush to the underside of the frame to keep the cg low so I cut the center section out of this plate that sits on top.  The forward section mounted the muffler and hood, the center mounted the engine and the rear section mounts the center console/column.  I need the front and rear section in place but the center could be flipped over.  I'll add some support and beef but for now it's looking good for mock-up.  I think I will cut a section from the frame as well so I don't have to pull the engine to remove the pulley.  After I cut it I'll make a bolt on section so I don't lose any strength.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20323

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20324

This is close to where it will sit.  The cg is not as low as the vertical shaft setup but I'm pretty happy with how low this is.  I can move the engine back towards me a couple inches too so possibly I can put the battery in the front and make room for other stuff in the console.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20326

They pulley fits too.  I'm going to have to cut larger sections out of the body work to run the belt and be able to service it without removing major components.  After I get the belt run and the clutch designed and built, I'll fabricate some sheet metal guards to cover it all and make it look nicer.  Plus I want to protect my knees and plums from exploding belts.  If it causes major issues I might change to smaller pulleys but I really want the grip strength and the durability of the larger pulleys.  I can put more power through a larger diameter pulley by trading tension for belt speed.  I plan on clutch kicking this thing and I want it to take as much abuse as possible.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20325


I also have another question for any people with hot carburator experience. I was originally planning on running the carb on the outside of the engine above the flywheel, that's where it sits currently. If I change the rotation on the carb flange I could mount it on top in the V of the engine. This would package really nicely and protect the carb better during a rollover, but I could see it being much hotter. Could I build a little heat shield and run it there or would I be better off keeping it out above the flywheel.
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJune 30th 2023, 4:24 pm

I don't see in the V being too bad. Remember the gas will cool it some as it runs.


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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 13th 2023, 12:38 am

I've been doing some stuff lately with the transmission.
I have the transmission held in place and aligned parallel to the chassis.  I cut a slot in the center of some one inch by half inch bar stock and bolted it to the top of the trans to confirm it to the slopes of the case.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20327

Next I just cut some more bar and winged it.  I'm pretty pleased with the results and it seems really strong.  This will control the bulk of the rotational forces from the transmission and my personal bean bag basically sits on the transmission case, so I increased the safety factor by a bit.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20329
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20330

I also drilled two holes in the short side and three in the long side through the frame and bolted it to the frame with flanged m10 hardware. This was my last operation today before I started working so didn't take a picture

I also repositioned my carbonator adaptor to run it between the cylinders in the V. I really like the looks and it will be great having the carb protected instead of hanging off the side.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20331
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20332

Last update I have for tonight is a start to the primary drive. It's going to be tight in the console area with the belt going through. I'll need to run an idler to bring the belt up and over my steering components and a cross member. I think the bottom will be under tension so that idler is going to live a hard life, I'll probably use something really robust like a timing belt idler or something I can source from work.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20333

Tomorrow will be hopefully more primary drive cleaning and mockups, maybe some clutch design.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 21st 2023, 6:51 pm

A little clutch teaser. I'll post an update this weekend. Things are coming together nice.[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20334

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 23rd 2023, 6:20 pm

Ive been working on the clutch alot lately and im really liking how its all coming together.  I found a stamped steel timing belt tensioner from a toyota 2uz engine that a coworker had changed out.  The pin and bushing were in really good condition and have basically zero play.  The pin is fairly long and will provide a really stable fulcrum.  I drilled and tapped a hole at the top of the clutch tower and i cut the pivot section from the rest of the timing tensioner assembly so i could weld it onto my clutch mechanism. [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20336

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20337

The last part of the belt layout that needs to be solved is the conflict with the frame.  The pulley on the transmission is large enough that it hangs down below the frame slightly and therefor the straight line it would take to the bottom of the engine pulley passes through the frame.  I salvaged the idler from the timing tension setup to use as the bottom side idler.  The bottom side will be the side under tension while driving so it will see the highest belt loads and will require a robust idler to survive for any length of time.  I was originally going to use a plastic dorman serpentine idler for a whatever chevy v8 that i got for free but wasnt sold on it.  The pulley itself was plastic and there was only one bearing.  The toyota timing idler is one bearing as well but its a double row sealed unit that is much larger than the serpentine idler and i think it will be able to take whatever loads i can throw at it.  

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20339

I cut a small piece of bar to space it off the frame rail.  Its mounted with a 10x1.25 bolt and nut through a hole in the frame.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20338

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20340

The last part i did last week was finally measure for a belt.  This was exciting as this project has not had a drive belt in it yet.  I used some 1/4in fuel tubing to string though the belt assembly and then measure for my belt length.  It happened to come out right at 70in, which seems to be a fairly available size.  This is the route everything will take.  It makes me really happy to see a belt in its home, though the engine is not mounted yet.  Il leave a little adjustment in the engine mounts to fine tube the belt tension but this will be really close to where it will sit.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20341

So my questions for anyone with more experience is about belts.  I ordered a 4L in 70in length, as well as a 69in 5L and a 71in 5L.  The 4L seems to fit the transmission pulley really well but sits deep in the engine pulley.  Im guessing the 5L will sit nice in the engine pulley but ride high on the transmission and v idler in the clutch.  Would i be better off trying to fit the 5L if i can since its larger?  I could cut the hub out of the transmission pulley and weld a universal in its place, and find a different v idler for the clutch.  I dont know if that would be worth the effort, or should i run the 4L and let it live low in the engine pulley?  I guess that would reduce the chance of a derail of the belt during clutch, but with belt guides it shouldnt really be much of an issue anyways.  

Also these belts i ordered are the NAPA lawn and garden FHP line.  Is there a better belt thats worth the extra money?  Seems like Gates might make a good one, but its double the price of the napa one i got but claims superior strength.  Im running pretty large pulleys so the belt tension should be reduced compared to other builds i see on here running 4 and 5in stuff, but i dont know at what point the belt becomes a weak link.

This is the 4L i got, the 5L belts will arrive on monday
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20343

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 23rd 2023, 11:38 pm

Belt setup looks good so far. It seems the 4L and 5l ratings are similar to the 1/2 (or A) and 5/8 (or B) size belts, respectively. The seem to differ in the fact that the L ratings are for Fractional Horsepower uses (hence the FHP) whereas the typical (at least to the mower community) 1/2 or 5/8 belts are meant to handle more HP. I and others have tried FHP belts and found them to be no good in this application, not lasting long or gripping the pulleys too much.

It is interesting that NAPA is selling FHP belts targeted towards lawn and garden tractor use, given they don't work well in that area. It is also odd that your belt appears similar to the typical kevlar or aramid belts we use, found at most any farm store. The FHP belts I have seen are usually black and sort of rubbery, as I recall anyway. It's unlikely but perhaps that belt may not actually be FHP. It's hard to tell without seeing it in person.

Interesting read i found on the subject of belts, hope you can read it ok.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Belt112

In terms of the 1/2 vs 5/8 belts, the 1/2" is generally preferred to the mower community as it has much better clutching, or declutching characteristics than the larger and less flexible 5/8" belt. The smaller belt, as you mentioned, also fits well in either size of pulley with the added benefit of fitting deeper into the groove on the 5/8" pulley.

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 24th 2023, 11:13 am

I was under the opposite assumption about belts. The only stuff I can find fully wrapped and meant for clutch action are these fhp belts. I have some 5/8 rubber automotive belts but they seem to grab really hard and make me think they wouldn't clutch well.

The belt I have is fully wrapped, here's some closer pictures if it helps.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20344
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20345

I only use Napa stuff because I have access to all things at cost with free delivery through work. Do you have any links to belt resources specifically for these types of applications? Il have to do more research and see if I made the right choices. All the Napa stuff is freely refundable as well. It's a really nice service to have.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 24th 2023, 11:59 am

My 5L belts just arrived. They look identical to the 4L but larger.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20346
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Img20347

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 24th 2023, 12:52 pm

A quick google search found this. It doesn’t say anything about the clutch action though.
https://hvhindustrial.com/blog/common-types-of-v-belts

That 4L belt looks ok, given the woven construction. I guess you will just have to see if it stretches too much or shreds. Pretty generally we don’t put much thought into it and just go get a 1/2” belt from tractor supply for around $20, lol.
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitimeJuly 26th 2023, 6:45 pm

You're doing a great man, I'm really enjoying watching this progress!

Aside from VariDrive applications I run 1/2" belts on everything and haven't had an issue yet, I'd only run 5/8" if the situation actually warranted it. I find pulley sizes and clutch location/design plays a bigger role on clutch action than belt width but that's just my experiences.


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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 - Page 2 Icon_minitime

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