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 [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86

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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 13th 2023, 11:33 pm

#Buildoff2023

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20128

This is my project, flexible.  It's a John Deere L130 that I'm completely reconfiguring.  The hydrostatic transaxle is dead and I'm swapping in a live axle and a peerless 700 clone.  I'm also sectioning all the bodywork, sinking the seat into the body pan, lengthening the wheelbase, reenforcing the frame and building an exhaust from scratch.  I'm taking each part of this project as it's own whole project and trying to make everything exactly how I want it and as strong and reliable as possible.

My plan is to go through, modify, or completely replace every aspect with my own version of things.  No part will be untouched and there's still tons to do.  I'm also trying to make it look as stock as possible.

The end goal is a jack of all trades type of vehicle.  I want to be able to go fast with reasonable handling, drift on dirt and wet pavement, launch hard in a straight line, wheel power line roads and off-road trails at the closest OHV park and be able to push and tow various disabled Toyota land cruisers at work.

The entry photo is the state of the project currently.  These are some pictures of the build in various states over the last few months.
Very first mock-up on tires.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20129

Working on the steering knuckle.  This is the kind of thing I'll be doing to every aspect.  Strength, reliability and solid performance is the goal of every part down the last bolt.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20131

Going through the transmission.  I have an idea to be able to slam through gears under high load without any possibility of blowing the case up from selecting two gears at once if I convert to 3 speed, but I don't know yet.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20130

Approved - Jan 14, 2023 MightyRaze

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 3:15 am

[adm]Welcome to the 2023 Build-Off.[/adm]

Year for the speed builds. afro


[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Sig115PROJECTS:
     Marshal ........93 Craftsman GT6000      
     Red Bandit ...72 Wheel Horse Raider 12
     Dirty Rat........77 Sears Suburban
     Bowser..........01 Murray Widebody LT
     Other projects
Have a question? Ask me! Type in "@MightyRaze" in your post!
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Sig214[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Sig314
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 8:48 am

Welcome!

I'm looking forward to watching this take shape, you've been doing a great job already!

Have to ask though...a Peerless 700 clone? Please explain! Lol


My All Terrain Tractors:
- "The WarHorse" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Romping in Progress!)
- Roper "Trailblazer" ~ 1986 Roper LT110CR (Trailblazing in Progress!)
- The "Mud Duck" ~ 1969 Bolens 1225 Hydro (2022 Build Off 2nd place!)
- The "Silver Bullet" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Part 1)
- The "Silver Bullet" (Take 2) ~ 2024 Build Off entry (Work in progress)
- Roper "Offroadster" ~ 1979 Roper T4328 (Romping in Progress!)
- 1973 Massey Ferguson MF12 ~ (Sold to a good home)



                             Click Here To See The DIY and Build Threads I've Created!

                                            ~My Real Hobby Is Collecting Projects!~
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 3:43 pm

Cool build. My Lawnmower Kart and my Offroad Murray also have the tecumseh Peerless 700. My kart has 3 forward, 1 neutral and 1 reverse gear. My Murray has 5 Forward, 1 neutal and 1 reverse gear. Im gonna try to use a 428 reinforced motorcross chain on my 11hp murray. Is that going to work? what chain size do you run?
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 3:55 pm

Brianator wrote:


Have to ask though...a Peerless 700 clone? Please explain! Lol

The transmission I'm using is a progear t7512.  5 speed 700 copy.  The case looks slightly more reenforced than a real 700 and the shift detents are very stiff.  Overall I'm pretty happy with the guts and I think it's going to be a good transmission.  My main concern is the output shaft and coarse spline, the minor diameter is not as big as the fine spline variant, but it was unavailable when I ordered it.  If I break it, I'm pretty sure I can swap to the fine spline shaft but I'm doing a lot of extra work to give this coarse shaft as good a chance as possible.  

I haven't been posting in my original thread lately so I have a store of pictures to go through and write up today, it will have tons of transmission and clutch stuff that I've been working on over the last two weeks.


MoTiJo wrote:
what chain size do you run?

I'm just going to run standard # 40.  I think it will be strong enough, but abuse will tell me for sure.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 4:39 pm

Thanks for the explanation!

You're original thread is locked until the Build Off is either over or you pull out but worry not because they can be merged together afterwards to make it all one thread!


My All Terrain Tractors:
- "The WarHorse" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Romping in Progress!)
- Roper "Trailblazer" ~ 1986 Roper LT110CR (Trailblazing in Progress!)
- The "Mud Duck" ~ 1969 Bolens 1225 Hydro (2022 Build Off 2nd place!)
- The "Silver Bullet" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Part 1)
- The "Silver Bullet" (Take 2) ~ 2024 Build Off entry (Work in progress)
- Roper "Offroadster" ~ 1979 Roper T4328 (Romping in Progress!)
- 1973 Massey Ferguson MF12 ~ (Sold to a good home)



                             Click Here To See The DIY and Build Threads I've Created!

                                            ~My Real Hobby Is Collecting Projects!~

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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 14th 2023, 7:31 pm

This is a big update that covers the last two weeks. I took a break from working on things until January so I have 133 pictures to find the best few of.


I put together a very basic transmission mount so i could start getting an idea of where to put the transmission, seat, and clutch components. Ive read that using all the case mounting bolts is worthwhile, so i stuck these on using the 6 bottom holes. I also drilled and tapped all the mounting holes from m8x1.25 to m10x1.5. I don't have matching hardware yet, but that will come in time.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20134

I also salvaged the mower deck clutch during the disassembly and cut out its mount so i can add it wherever i see fit.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20133

I clamped the transmission about where i thought it should go and tacked the clutch base onto the top chassis pan.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20132

Overall i think this is going to work out for the clutch. I have no idea what kind of belt tension im going to need for the clutch engagement feel i want, but it should be pretty adjustable with such large pulleys. Im going to start with the stock deck belt clutch spring and go from there. I havent figured out where to put the springs yet, but il mock that stuff up when i have the actual pulleys im going to use. They are ordered but not here yet.

Next i wanted to work more on the body drop. I took an inch out of the bottom of the console and welded it back together for starters.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20136
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20135

This is how its sitting after the small console drop and a chunk taken from the steering shaft to lower the wheel.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20137

Im not happy with the side profile and proportions, the body is too high still. I need at least a few more inches out of the console and hood to make me happy. I decided to hack more from the console.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20139

I laid tape down for a guide and used an angle grinder / cutoff wheel to remove another section from the middle. I think i cut 2in out of it this time. If i remember right, the blue tape i used was 2in wide.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20138

It sits so much better now with the body drop and shortened steering shaft. Typing this also made me realize that the picture i posted up top as the first mockup is not the right picture. This is the first mockup with the sectioned console.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20140

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20141

I think this will be the final height of the steering wheel and console. its as low as it can be without interfering with my legs working the clutch and throttle. It also looks pretty good from the side other than the hood lines now. The side indent on the console used to line up with the sweeping lines on the side of the hood. Il probably trim things to get some style lines going later in the final stages, but for now its just fine.

This is my damaged mockup steering shaft that im using to try different heights. Its set to the length i need currently and i was surprised to see how much i took out of it compared to stock. I lowered the wheel tons.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20142

Next i started working on the clutch some more. I started to get the linkages working and levers / cranks mocked up. I decided to use the brake pedal pivot bar for the clutch actuation. I cut the pedal itself off and just used the pivot portion which will be driven by a crank from the actual clutch pedal. I cut a notch into a universal bumper mount tab we use at work and drilled a bunch of holes into it for linkage adjustments and welded it on to the clutch pivot. I used a stock clutch linkage that i shortened and welded back together with a 90 degree rotation in it. I will probably make some nice linkages for it for the long term, but this will get it working for now. I just want to use an easily replaceable link end so when it wears out, i wont have to buy a Deere part and cut it to make a new one. I also drilled a bunch of holes into a piece of scrap flat bar for actuating the clutch pulley plate to weld onto the deck clutch.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20145

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20143

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20144

I think this is going to work out, i just need to figure out the tensioning spring and replace the idlers with dead bearings. I decided to finalize the clutch placement and welded it. I also painted some misc parts. Red for the clutch actuation lever, yellow for the clutch idler plate and green for the steering gear.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20146

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20148

The next piece i tackled is the transmission mount. The two little strap bits are not going to cut it and i needed something more robust. I added a tab on each side of angle to try to incorporate the brake caliper mount bolts in addition to the 6 bottom mounts. This will also add strength to the whole mount itself.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20147

I drilled and tapped the two brake caliper mounts to m10x1.5 and bolted the tabs i made to the trans and tacked them to the mounts. Its starting to cradle the transmission and i really hope it helps keep it together under some stress and abuse.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20150

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20149

I also made a bottom plate to tie everything together further. I drilled a 1.25in hole for the input shaft and the drawn bits on the corners is material to remove to make clearance for 4 of the transmission mounting bolts.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20151

I welded the bottom plate on with the transmission bolted in place to hopefully reduce deformation then i plopped some wet paper towels on it because the case was starting to get pretty hot. I was welding these really hot and there was a decent amount of surface area. Things were getting really hot.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20152

One thing in the future that il have to address is the output shaft. I dont want the transmission output bushings to have to deal with the tension load of the chain. I think it will put far too much force into the case and cause premature wear and excess friction on the bushings. Im also concerned about the diameter of the output shaft getting bent from a clutch dump or a hard bounce. The final drive will be supporting essentially the entire weight of the vehicle and myself so i want to isolate the transmission entirely from those forces. The transmission should only have to deal with the rotational torque force and thats is. Something along these lines with a couple bearings is the idea.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20153

I received the engine pully and hub finally and wanted to mock up the clutch to a more final state. I tacked the drive pulley to the 1in hub for the engine and mounted the engine temporarily. I have a few half inch belts that i've been using for aligning things and i noticed that this green stripe belt was really close to the right length. After mounting up everything i found out that this belt is exactly the right length. Its not at all the right style, i need a wrapped belt for smooth engagement but it was awesome having a belt that i can use for clutch setup and measure for finding the actual belt when its time.

Toyota FJ62 power steering belt is perfect, what a cool coincidence. It engages well, disengages well and the clutch moves a reasonable amount for slipping.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20154

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20155

Im happy with the clutch for now, that brings it up to current. Not much more to do with the mechanism, just the pedal and linkages once its time to start on the foot controls. Now in keeping in the spirit of cleaning and prettying things up, i tackled the flywheel. This engine has been sitting for quite a while and is pretty rusty and dirty. I popped the flywheel off and cleaned out a ton of fine dust packed all in the magnets of the alternator as well as cleaned off some oxidization on the cooling fins.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20158

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20157

I cleaned up the flywheel with a wire wheel after cleaning the dirt out. Looks so much better.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20156

Now its a lightweight aluminum racing flywheel ready to turn 10,000 rpm. Thats what aluminum paint does right?
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20159

I put it back on and was pretty surprised that the little bolt with a 13mm head needed 49ft lbs. I thought it was going to feel sketchy but it cinched up quick and solid at 49. Must be a nice fastener and good threads.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20161


One unfortunate thing i discovered working on the flywheel is the end play. It felt loose but i thought it might just be a small engine thing. I decided to look up the specs and my heart sank a little when i found it was supposed to be i think .003-.020. Something like that. I measured it at .053. I havent decided if im going to do anything about it or not. Being a vertical shaft engine and the flywheel on top, its not going to be bouncing around back and forth as it might with a horizontal. Im going to research some into maybe doing bearings, possibly even just crank thrust bearings. If im in there though i feel like i should roll rod bearings in and do rings / cleanup hone. if i do all that il want to lap valves and do new head gaskets. i dont know how much i want the engine to snowball yet, il decide that stuff later.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20160

Next i wanted to flesh out the output shaft support for the transmission. I want some way to transfer all chain forces directly into the chassis for maximum transmission durability. I started with some angle i found in the scrap bin as most brackets on this project do. I drilled half inch holes into the face for rosette welds. This will hold the inner support bearing with an outer flange for the outer bearing.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20163

I decided to add a little extra surface area to the lower section for more strength as well as adding two more rosettes. I didnt want it to bend the chassis or start a crack if the forces werent distributed over enough surface area.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20162

I used one of my 123 blocks to setup and tack the outer portion of the support on so that the top surface of the bracket is flat and square to the chassis. Then welded it up.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20164

I did some rosettes in the outer flange as well as a perimeter weld. I like the look of this bracket and it was fun learning some new welding techniques. Im a very amateur welder compared to the people i work with but i got some compliments on improving with this one. Im happy with it and the more welding i do, the better il get.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20167

I ran a bead across the top as well and then ground it down with a flap disk. I used a big flat file to surface the whole thing and take off the highs around the perimeter. I want this as flat as possible. I ran my indicator around and other than the little gaps and troughs around the weld in the center that doesnt matter, the whole surface is flat within .005. Thats plenty flat enough for mounting my bearings.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20166

I got some 5/8in pillow block bearings for the output shaft and a coarse spline shaft for a big walk behind mower that uses a coarse spline 700. Im going to shorten the shaft and machine a new keyway wherever i need it and mount this 10t sprocket i got. I already have a coarse spline coupler from my original idea of welding a sprocket to it to put a sprocket directly on the transmission. Im really happy with how all this came out. I intentionally set the bearing mount surface about .030 below where it needs to be so that i can buy some assorted shim stock to put under the pillow blocks. I want to dial in the height and alignment with the transmission perfectly so the splines dont wear weird.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20165

This brings up everything to current as of friday the 13th. I have chain and final drive sprockets on the way, they should be here in the next week or 10 days. When i had the transmission out i counted all the teeth and figured out the ratios. With the 8in engine and transmission pulleys, 1:1, and a 10t-30t chain final drive, 3:1, 5th gear @4000 rpm will be 35mph on the 22in turf tires. I also bought a 48t for a final of 4.8:1 for when i run the 26in kenda bear claws for trail riding.

Theres still so much to do, and im not sure what im going to work on monday, but im having so much fun with all this. This was a ton to write at once though, im looking forward to going back to daily or every other daily short updates.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 15th 2023, 12:32 am

Now THAT'S an update! Lol. Great work man that's looking just awesome!

Crankshaft endplay if often set/adjusted with the sump gaskets, they generally come in a set with different thicknesses so you can mix and match until you're happy with it.

Your welds look great btw!


My All Terrain Tractors:
- "The WarHorse" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Romping in Progress!)
- Roper "Trailblazer" ~ 1986 Roper LT110CR (Trailblazing in Progress!)
- The "Mud Duck" ~ 1969 Bolens 1225 Hydro (2022 Build Off 2nd place!)
- The "Silver Bullet" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Part 1)
- The "Silver Bullet" (Take 2) ~ 2024 Build Off entry (Work in progress)
- Roper "Offroadster" ~ 1979 Roper T4328 (Romping in Progress!)
- 1973 Massey Ferguson MF12 ~ (Sold to a good home)



                             Click Here To See The DIY and Build Threads I've Created!

                                            ~My Real Hobby Is Collecting Projects!~
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Krawler86
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 19th 2023, 11:23 pm

This week ive been a bit busy with some home and family things so i have not put as much time into this as i want, but i still got some neat things going on. I started on the seat mount. I grabbed some rectangle tubing from the scrap bin and cut it to match the width of the frame. I drilled some large holes and some small holes so the fasteners would sit inside the tubing.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20169

I also added a couple extensions to the back side to grab the other two seat mount holes and drilled it the same. Then on a whim i drilled some 1 1/8 speed holes. This seat bracket is already going 55mph and the project still has a long ways to go. It made the bracket noticeably lighter and i like the looks. Plus it should keep corrosion down being able to air out and dry easily. Il try to shoot some paint inside as well when i paint the chassis.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20168

I set the seat where i want it and it happened to lay into a little dimple in the chassis rails which made it easy to tack in place and weld. The seat sits slightly leaned back at ride height and is a pretty comfortable height. I might need to raise the seat a little bit for chain clearance for my low ratio sprocket, or maybe il notch the seat.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20170

I also used some little trapezoidal brackets that we use at work for generic mounts for whatever, they happened to be the right size and look nice. The seat mount should be very sturdy.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20171

I received my fast sprocket in the mail and did a quick mockup with it. This is 30t for a 3:1 final drive. Should be lots of fun with the turf tires in the dirt or wet pavement, or the snow if we get some next winter. I love the snow but its rare.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20173

To keep the ground clearance as good as possible, im going to add an idler somewhere around here. When im cresting over something that scrapes the belly, i want it to contact the rear tires and not the chain. Il have to add a couple links to the chain to get it up a little bit higher, but this is just a mockup. The chain only has 3mm of clearance to the bottom of the seat. It will be rubbing pretty bad with the 48t trail sprocket. I dont want any idlers on the forward tension side of the chain, so im not yet sure how il solve that issue. Most likely il cut a notch out of the bottom of the seat.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20172

I am slightly concerned with chassis flexing excessively since the only crossmember behind the transmission so far is the seat mount and i dont want it to bear that much flexing load. I think i want to add a tubular X member under the seat and transmission to tie that section all together. It will help distribute the forces from the tractive support (thats what ive been calling the pillow block transmission output support) and keep the twisting forces away from the seat mount. I feel like the seat mount will crack and bend if it has to deal with all that. Its exciting to see all the pieces of the drivetrain starting to come together.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 19th 2023, 11:51 pm

Looking pretty good so far. As has already been said about the end play, you can adjust that by putting in a thinner sump/side cover gasket. They are usually sold in different thicknesses to adjust the end play. That being said, I'm sure it would probably be fine to use it the way it is too, even being beyond spec a bit. They have quite a bit of slop in clearances. What I normally do is use permatex black silicone to make my own sump gaskets. In that case it's pretty much the minimum amount of clearance you could possibly get as it's just about metal to metal. I bolt it together and snug a couple bolts dry tho first to be sure the crank isn't tight and so you know you have at least a little clearance. Then just glue it up a little and bolt together. I never had any leaks that way and you save on paper gaskets.
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeJanuary 22nd 2023, 6:52 pm

loving all the high quality fab work man! killer build

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeApril 11th 2023, 10:21 pm

Sorry for the pause in the build. Some stuff came up at work and I had to pack the project away to make room for a couple land cruisers. Luckily I'm done with them now and I brought my Deere back out. [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20174

I received my slower ratio sprocket, if I remember right, this will be 28mph at 4200rpm in 5th.

I'll be posting more later this week and next week when I ramp up work on it again. I gave collected some cool parts for it salvaged from the cruisers I've been working on. I got a clutch slave from an 87 Toyota mini truck, a single circuit clutch master from an early 40 series cruiser and a single circuit brake master from the same truck. I don't know which will have the best ratio of piston diameters for my brake setup. I'll be running two 4.5in band brakes in parallel driven by the single clutch slave. The brake master will be larger so will have less force and less travel, but my brake lever will be long so that might be the ticket. If not, the clutch master will have much more force since the bore is much closer to the clutch slave, I'll have to just try them. I love doing brake lines for full size vehicles so I'm really looking forward to doing some nice hard lines for this tractor. I'm pretty happy to be getting back in the swing of things.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 24th 2023, 11:07 pm

Well lots of things have changed over the past bit.  I apologize for the lack of updates but this project took an unexpected turn.  

First change: Axe the peerless 700 clone transmission.
I'm not planning on trying to break this thing, but if I want to pin it and side step the clutch, I really don't want it to be a coin toss whether or not the case will explode, especially with the 26in Kenda's for off road trim.
The solution is to use the the peerless 633a1 that I have from a long time ago.  I had already built a locker and cleaned it up a bit.  I'm currently cleaning it up again since it's been sitting and has some speckles in the case.  I am also going to machine some keyways into the shafts so I can mount a sprocket on the output to drive my live rear axle.  I want to be able to easily change drive ratios which is why I'm going to use the sprockets.  I'm only going to use one side to drive, so the unused side will be a spare in case I twist a shaft apart.  I'll also cut the shafts down short to fit between my frame and rear tires.  Unfortunately my phone died yesterday so I don't have any pictures of the guts right now.  I'll get some tomorrow, is just all torn down and clean.  

Change two: Switching from vertical to horizontal
I have this Kohler cv23 that I like and that seems like it's in great condition.  I love the idea of 23hp but I can't really use a vertical with the 633a, and I don't want weird twisty belts.  My first idea was to use the 18hp opposed flathead that I gave to a friend.  I do wish I had it still, it would have a lower cg than the v, and 180 degree flats sound so much cooler than v twins.  I think Harleys sound kinda dumb so I'm not all that stoked on the v twin exhaust note but I'll probably try to build an interesting exhaust for it.  I might be able to get the flathead back but it's not a big deal.  For now, the cv23 is going to get converted to horizontal.  It looks like it would be pretty simple with a different oil pump pickup and maybe some different drain holes around the engine.  This i do have pictures of at least.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20175

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20176


Cleaned up the crank case and discovered that there are no gaskets between the case halves.  I've heard from some people that you adjust crank end play with sump gaskets, this is not the case with this engine at least.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20177


I also found where all the end play came from.  I don't know if there's a missing trust washer or if the case just got eaten over time.  I'm going to try and find something to use as a thrust washer for when it goes back together.  I guess just the weight of the flywheel constantly pushing on that thrust surface just ate it away.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20179

I removed the oil pump and cleaned this half too.  I removed the guts of the governor so I can rev to the moon if I see fit.  Everything looks pretty great, no measurable wear on the oil pump thrust plate or the pump body.  I'm going to try and preload the regulator spring a little bit so I can have sightly higher oil pressure.  If I can find a cam, I'll put one in for a little more power, maybe some rings as well if the walls don't look perfect witch a clean up hone.  

Tomorrow I'm going to get the shafts out of the locker in the trans and finish cleaning the engine internals.  I'll probably pull the heads as well if I have time.  

It will be fun designing another clutch and new mounts for everything.  Do you think #40 chain will be strong enough for the final drive?  I haven't worked out the gear ratio numbers yet but I have a feeling I'll be slightly overdriven on the final so I need a strong chain.  I hope I can use the 40 and some of the sprockets I already have, but I'll go stronger if I need to

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 8:03 am

If thats the original Kohler CV23 then yes it does have a sump gasket or at least supposed to, something needs to seal the surfaces and it clearly shows it in the service manual. I see traces of gasket material on the surfaces so maybe someone has been into it at some point?

420 motorcycle chain is about the best you can use but 40 chain should get you by for a bit, it just doesn't have any way to stop dirt from getting into the rollers like motorcycle chain does (o rings).


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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 10:36 am

# 40 chain holds up pretty well as a peerless 820 reverse chain, when you can make it fit. I haven’t busted the weaker # 41 chain yet in that application, even. I think 420 or 428 would be better though. You can see here how the strength increases with the 420 and 428 chain.

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 C8ce7310

Looking forward to seeing how the vertical to horizontal shaft conversion works!
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 10:43 am

Brianator wrote:
If thats the original Kohler CV23 then yes it does have a sump gasket or at least supposed to, something needs to seal the surfaces and it clearly shows it in the service manual. I see traces of gasket material on the surfaces

It was only sealed with an rtv. Maybe the thrust got bad, they tossed the gaskets and kept going. If so, I'm impressed at how nice everything looks inside. Everything else I work on is so crusty inside with that much use under it's belt. There was some really nasty smelling oil coming out of the oil pump fasteners and one or two of the case bolts. Very similar to taking the bearing caps off a 250k ring and pinion member.

I was hoping this engine was low hours by the looks inside, but the eaten case and no gaskets are killing that idea. At least nothing was leaking and the oil pump is in great shape.
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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 11:58 am

It's definitely supposed to have one, some wear on the sump of a vertical shaft is somewhat normal, all mine have shown wear on the "plain" bearing which really is just a surface, would be nice if there was a thrust washer but my old B&S don't have them.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Scree169


My All Terrain Tractors:
- "The WarHorse" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Romping in Progress!)
- Roper "Trailblazer" ~ 1986 Roper LT110CR (Trailblazing in Progress!)
- The "Mud Duck" ~ 1969 Bolens 1225 Hydro (2022 Build Off 2nd place!)
- The "Silver Bullet" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Part 1)
- The "Silver Bullet" (Take 2) ~ 2024 Build Off entry (Work in progress)
- Roper "Offroadster" ~ 1979 Roper T4328 (Romping in Progress!)
- 1973 Massey Ferguson MF12 ~ (Sold to a good home)



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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 12:44 pm

Most of the Commands I've seen were siliconed from the factory. Even if the IPL shows a gasket that might've been only for some early engines or something. If it was black coloured sealer I bet it was a factory job.


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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 25th 2023, 1:25 pm

Thanks for the exploded view.  I just downloaded and printed the manual so I can have it for reference.  Looks like there's no thrust bearing, just the aluminum in the sump cover unfortunately.  I'm not sure what to try and use in there, maybe a ground shim or something like that.  I don't want the crank bouncing side to side in horizontal orientation.  If I find something suitable it wouldn't be too big a deal to mill the surface down to give it a nice flat to ride on and make room for the shim.  The crank itself looks perfectly fine.  

The transmission is pretty clean and getting a coat of grey.  No updates on the engine yet.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20180

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20182

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 26th 2023, 5:40 pm

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20183
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20184
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20185
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20186

I'm glad I decided to go deep into this engine.  I've ordered a bunch of seals, head gaskets and other gaskets since I decided to pull the heads.  Cylinder 1 looks fantastic in every way.  Cylinder two has been eating oil for a while and it will be nice to fix that up.  I haven't yet determined if it's valve guides or stem seals, head gasket or rings.  The cylinder walls look great still, so I'll measure the clearances when I get the crank and piston out.  If piston to wall is good, I'll most likely toss in some rings, deglaze and run it.  I don't want to do Pistons, but whatever it needs it will get.  I can check out the bearings as well, it looks like nothing ever ran out of oil so I'm really hoping the bearings will be good to go.  

I also ordered the ch23 oil pump pickup to complete the purchased part of the v to h conversion.  I had to pull the heads to modify the drain back holes too so that worked out.  I'll have to remove the little hill surrounding the drain holes so oil won't pool while horizontal.  Should be fairly easy.  I think that's it other than plugging the dip stick hole.  Oil changes and setting the oil level will be a bit tedious but that's fine.  I'm really liking working on the small engines, it's quite fun.  Super nice to be able to roll it around and lay it on various sides instead of being contorted into an engine bay or stuck to a stand.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 26th 2023, 10:26 pm

I have a little more for this Friday.  I've pulled the rods and Pistons and I think I'm good to go.  The rod caps have a little wear but nothing you can feel with a fingernail.  I'm going to run them as the crank looks just about perfect.  I was under the impression for some reason that I could replace rod bearings, that's not the case so I'm happy I don't need to buy rods.  The piston skirts look really good and the rings are nice and free.  Even the bores still have nice crosshatching.  Reassembly is likely.
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20188
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20187
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20189

[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20191
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20190


Piston to wall clearance came in at .0022 for cylinder two.  I haven't yet measured number one yet.  Spec in the manual I think was .0015 to .0035 or something like that. I'm on the higher side of the middle so no issues there thankfully.

I would really like an opinion on rings though. It seems as though my oil consumption in number two was coming from the head gasket but I didn't properly diagnose it so I can't say for sure. It could be the valves too but my research says that's unlikely. Should I put rings in it and hone the bore for a fresh break-in or should I not touch the bore and keep running the rings I have. I don't have much experience ringing a used engine.

Hopefully number one looks as good as two in the numbers and I'll be ready to go back together when all my gaskets arrive. I can't wait to rev this thing to the moon and let the tires fry. Especially if it launches a rod through the block or something eventually.

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 27th 2023, 8:29 am

Thats a tough question to answer, sounds like you won't be upset if it grenades so why put money into it but considering it's cheap and easy then why not!? Lol


General rules of thumb are:
- a cylinder will glaze naturally over time and provides less friction.
- don't hone a cylinder unless you're installing new rings.
- if the rings have good tension and proper end gap they're likely reusable (a very quick scuff/hone of the cylinder wouldn't hurt)

Honing/installing new rings isn't hard and gives you the opportunity to do a fresh break in procedure which is nice, keep in mind that like automotive rings there is usually a side UP and a side DOWN, UP would be indicated by a dot or mark on the rings flat (linear) surface. It's very important to install them right side up because they have a tapers on the outside edge which might not be as easy to spot on a used ring, install them upside down and you're likely to end up low on compression and oil getting past the rings.


My All Terrain Tractors:
- "The WarHorse" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Romping in Progress!)
- Roper "Trailblazer" ~ 1986 Roper LT110CR (Trailblazing in Progress!)
- The "Mud Duck" ~ 1969 Bolens 1225 Hydro (2022 Build Off 2nd place!)
- The "Silver Bullet" ~ 1984 Sears Craftsman LT(V)11 (MTD Built) (Part 1)
- The "Silver Bullet" (Take 2) ~ 2024 Build Off entry (Work in progress)
- Roper "Offroadster" ~ 1979 Roper T4328 (Romping in Progress!)
- 1973 Massey Ferguson MF12 ~ (Sold to a good home)



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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 30th 2023, 1:39 pm

After lots of reading this weekend, I've decided to clean my pistons and rings and run them.  Everything looks pretty good so I'm not going to hone out ring anything.  
Pistons are nice and clean[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20192

I just used scotch Brite and carb cleaner.  Rings feel great, very free and springy.  Hopefully the scuffing on the crowns won't need with anything.  I didn't touch the skirts with anything more aggressive than a rag.  
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20193


Last edited by Brianator on May 30th 2023, 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling mistake)

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 30th 2023, 2:27 pm

It’ll be fine Smile

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[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Empty
PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitimeMay 30th 2023, 10:02 pm

I got one head broken down for cleaning. I cleaned the combustion chamber, the head sealing surface and the intake valve so far. I couldn't get all the crap from the nooks in the chamber but I think it's good enough. The carbon on this side is really tough. Took lots of scrubbing and wiping to even start making progress. [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20196
[23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Img20194

Another good note, the valves look and feel great. They're nice and tight in the guides and have nothing on the stems that you can feel at all. I haven't measured but I'm pretty confident that they're good to go.

I have the exhaust valve soaking in atf overnight to hopefully help me in cleaning the carbon off it tomorrow morning. I'll also break down the other head and clean it out as well. The other side was running nice so I think it will be less work to get clean.

The seats look fantastic too with no evidence of leaking so I don't think I'll lap them.

I am going to do some very minor port work to clean out some casting flash. They're small ridges but it can't hurt to smooth the runner out.

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PostSubject: Re: [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86   [23] [unique] Flexible, by Krawler86 Icon_minitime

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